Curse

Lord Sojar · Jun 01, 2010, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

what justifies a permaban? simply loading up a bot? thats not cheating, thats having a cheat. thats what it feels like a some of the 3700 were banned for--simply the presence of a cheat, not actually cheating.

and what justifies a permaban over a temporary ban? if he used a farming bot to farm 100g, why does that deserve a permaban and not just a temporary one? surely thats not as harmful as some of the exploits people do everyday to make themselves 100k.

All people should be treated equally. If you downloaded and installed a tool to cheat, that shows intent to cheat, or attempt to cheat. If you booted that tool up and introduced it into the game, that is cheating. Either way, it's a direct violation of the ToS/EULA, and subject to the punishment laid out within it, aka account termination.

You can't ban one person for 72 hours because they used a bot for 10 minutes and got 100g, and then another because they used a bot for 24 hours and got 4k gold. Where do you draw the line? It wouldn't be fair any other way than the way it was done. Cheating is cheating, no matter how you try to twist it.

Who decides the imaginary line in the sand, so to speak? Does Izzy decide? Gaile? Regina? NCSoft? Us? The people that were banned? Who decides what was a minor offense, what was a medium offense, what was a major offense, and what was an especially heinous offense? Using the bot for 5 minutes? 10? An hour? A day? A week? A month? A year? 3 years? Do you see the dilemma? You cannot hope to make that a fair call, so you simple ban everyone to maintain fairness. Those who didn't cheat don't get banned, and those who even attempted to cheat, get perma banned, without appeal. Fair is fair.

Nerel · Jun 01, 2010, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

what justifies a permaban? simply loading up a bot? thats not cheating, thats having a cheat. thats what it feels like a some of the 3700 were banned for--simply the presence of a cheat, not actually cheating.

and what justifies a permaban over a temporary ban? if he used a farming bot to farm 100g, why does that deserve a permaban and not just a temporary one? surely thats not as harmful as some of the exploits people do everyday to make themselves 100k.

Gosh, way to go off topic, apparently this isn't meant to be a "QQ I got banned" thread about botting...

The rules make it clear what Anet's stance is on botting, use a bot get banned... the use of a bot is pretty binary, either you did or didn't have a bot.

That's quite different to exploits, and it's very subjective about what even constitutes an exploit... is entering an explorable area in HM with active quests an exploit? Is getting a 1 kill vanquish an exploit? Too many gray areas that haven't been clearly spelled out to the community... unlike bot use.

In short, it's a whole different kettle of fish. But thanks for your attempted thread hijacking.

Horace Slughorn · Jun 01, 2010, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

All people should be treated equally. If you downloaded and installed a tool to cheat, that shows intent to cheat, or attempt to cheat. If you booted that tool up and introduced it into the game, that is cheating. Either way, it's a direct violation of the ToS/EULA, and subject to the punishment laid out within it, aka account termination.

You can't ban one person for 72 hours because they used a bot for 10 minutes and got 100g, and then another because they used a bot for 24 hours and got 4k gold. Where do you draw the line? It wouldn't be fair any other way than the way it was done. Cheating is cheating, no matter how you try to twist it.

Who decides the imaginary line in the sand, so to speak? Does Izzy decide? Gaile? Regina? NCSoft? Us? The people that were banned? Who decides what was a minor offense, what was a medium offense, what was a major offense, and what was an especially heinous offense? Using the bot for 5 minutes? 10? An hour? A day? A week? A month? A year? 3 years? Do you see the dilemma? You cannot hope to make that a fair call, so you simple ban everyone to maintain fairness. Those who didn't cheat don't get banned, and those who even attempted to cheat, get perma banned, without appeal. Fair is fair.

It's a common mistake to assume that treating people equittably is treating them fairly. Every question of justice is made up of many small details that all have an ethical weight that has to be balanced, which is to say that they are not black and white, but many shades of grey.

Furthermore, "equittable" treatment completely ignores structured discrimination. For example, old police standards use to specify that officers had to be 6' plus and a certain body weight. Sure this looks like it treats each applicant equally. But this equal treatment has the effect of excluding the majority of women who don't meet those physical requirements. This is not being fair.

Riot Narita · Jun 01, 2010, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn

This is not being fair.

What's fair, is telling people for years that botting/cheating = ban.
And then dishing out bans to people who cheated/botted.

Horace Slughorn · Jun 01, 2010, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

What's fair, is telling people for years that botting/cheating = ban.
And then dishing out bans to people who cheated/botted.

Please don't twist my comment into a defense of botters, because it neither supported nor discouraged them. I just mean that in general, equittable treatment does not mean the same thing is fair treatment.

(Datura) · Jun 01, 2010, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Petition to demand that all demands be demanded anyone?

You seem to know enough about the tech side of it to have a reasonable discussion but you did use the word assume and if quite a lot.

I would like to know how a-net is treating Rmt farmers/botters as opposed to people who cheat and keep their spoils but demanding a response about the finer points of policy enforcement may be unreasonable.

In other words it's interesting but it's their business.

The Riven · Jun 01, 2010, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn

This is not being fair.

Who the hell cares?
Is it fair to let people who willingly broke the RoC continue regardless?
Oh, people cheated and got bloody caught doing so. My heart bleeds.

Riot Narita · Jun 01, 2010, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn

Please don't twist my comment into a defense of botters, because it neither supported nor discouraged them. I just mean that in general, equittable treatment does not mean the same thing is fair treatment.

Defense of botters? Whut?
What I said does not defend botters.
I said they got what they deserved, exactly as advertised.

I understand your point... but ultimately A-Net decides the rules, and the penalties for breaking those rules. Those rules and penalties are not secret, they've been known for years. Bot = Ban, no wriggle-room.

We can have all the academic/intellectual discussions we like about what counts as "fair"... but ultimately it's irrelevant what any of us think. The rules are set, we know what they are, we either choose to abide by them, or risk being banned. Personally, I say that's fair.

The Riven · Jun 01, 2010, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn

Please don't twist my comment into a defense of botters, because it neither supported nor discouraged them. I just mean that in general, equittable treatment does not mean the same thing is fair treatment.

I think it is a duty to actively discourage them.

pinkeyflower · Jun 01, 2010, 08:33 AM // 08:33

/signed to OP

If you have a bot you should be banned. It doesn't matter if you're going to use it or not, just get rid of it if you're not going to use it. Done. And the permaban serves as a reminder to not bot.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 01, 2010, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancing gnome

This is my biggest issue with the recent bans. If they had taken action sooner and more consistently, a lot of the people would have never broken the rules in the first place. You can say they broke the rules and should be banned all you like, that will never change the reality that by holding back on taking action or even saying something, Arena Net allowed the botting to spread to players it never would have in the first place.

Another blame ANET for someones personal decision to cheat. Those who cheat have only themselves to blame and no one else; if you believe otherwise you are being foolish.

snaek · Jun 01, 2010, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahja the thief

All people should be treated equally. If you downloaded and installed a tool to cheat, that shows intent to cheat, or attempt to cheat. If you booted that tool up and introduced it into the game, that is cheating. Either way, it's a direct violation of the ToS/EULA, and subject to the punishment laid out within it, aka account termination.

if i can make an analogy: guns are a tool for killing. if a person gets busted for illegally possessing such a tool, he gets arested for illegal possession not for killing.

Quote:

You can't ban one person for 72 hours because they used a bot for 10 minutes and got 100g, and then another because they used a bot for 24 hours and got 4k gold. Where do you draw the line? It wouldn't be fair any other way than the way it was done. Cheating is cheating, no matter how you try to twist it.

this is bs and you know it. it is foolish to think anets actions were based on that of fairness, rather than that of limitations.

Quote:

Who decides the imaginary line in the sand, so to speak? Does Izzy decide? Gaile? Regina? NCSoft? Us? The people that were banned? Who decides what was a minor offense, what was a medium offense, what was a major offense, and what was an especially heinous offense? Using the bot for 5 minutes? 10? An hour? A day? A week? A month? A year? 3 years? Do you see the dilemma? You cannot hope to make that a fair call, so you simple ban everyone to maintain fairness. Those who didn't cheat don't get banned, and those who even attempted to cheat, get perma banned, without appeal. Fair is fair.

anet decides. i don't know what's so hard to see about that. other offenses get different ban lengths, theres very little reason that bots cant also get different ban lengths. your very post goes against anet's own words that "they individually review each case". if they're not going to have any kind of judicial system in place, than they can go on and fully automate the whole process; but they didn't (by their words anyways), and they won't.

Firebaall · Jun 01, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

if i can make an analogy: guns are a tool for killing. if a person gets busted for illegally possessing such a tool, he gets arested for illegal possession not for killing.

Bad choice.

A closer analogy would be if that person took that tool to a school and started shooting. The reason those people got caught, was because they loaded up the software and fired it into the game.

Connect the dots.

Killed u man · Jun 01, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

All people should be treated equally. If you downloaded and installed a tool to cheat, that shows intent to cheat, or attempt to cheat. If you booted that tool up and introduced it into the game, that is cheating. Either way, it's a direct violation of the ToS/EULA, and subject to the punishment laid out within it, aka account termination.

You can't ban one person for 72 hours because they used a bot for 10 minutes and got 100g, and then another because they used a bot for 24 hours and got 4k gold. Where do you draw the line? It wouldn't be fair any other way than the way it was done. Cheating is cheating, no matter how you try to twist it.

Who decides the imaginary line in the sand, so to speak? Does Izzy decide? Gaile? Regina? NCSoft? Us? The people that were banned? Who decides what was a minor offense, what was a medium offense, what was a major offense, and what was an especially heinous offense? Using the bot for 5 minutes? 10? An hour? A day? A week? A month? A year? 3 years? Do you see the dilemma? You cannot hope to make that a fair call, so you simple ban everyone to maintain fairness. Those who didn't cheat don't get banned, and those who even attempted to cheat, get perma banned, without appeal. Fair is fair.

If you wanna go down the zero tollerance road:

What about Texmod users? Despite Regina/Anet claiming it's OK, their rules still state all third party programs are bannable. Not only is it a third party program, but it also injects. Your theory states all Texmod users should be banned.

What about people using portal glitches, AI glitches, exploits (such as the recent dual modding) and others. All those people deserve to be banned in your eyes?

Whilst I agree that the exploiters who recently made money of the dual modding exploit should be banned (for both scamming as exploiting), but most of those others are so harmless.

Somebody trying the interrupt bot only once didnt deserve a perm, in my eyes.

Gill Halendt · Jun 01, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

if i can make an analogy: guns are a tool for killing. if a person gets busted for illegally possessing such a tool, he gets arested for illegal possession not for killing.

Wrong analogy: you don't get banned for simply checking bot sites or downloading them. You get banned for USING.

So, to fix your analogy... As soon as you load the gun and shoot, killing one person, it doesn't matter wether it was one kill or ten: you're arrested for killing.

You're usually jailed for killing: Jail -> Permaban

You're basically asking to punish one time killers with a parking ticket.

Gill Halendt · Jun 01, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

What about Texmod users? Despite Regina/Anet claiming it's OK, their rules still state all third party programs are bannable. Not only is it a third party program, but it also injects. Your theory states all Texmod users should be banned.

- Texmod doesn't inject.
- All 3rd Party Programs bannable? Read the EULA again:

Quote:

22. You may not use any third-party program (such as a "bot") in order to automate gameplay functions, including playing, chatting, interacting, or gathering gold or items within Guild Wars. You may not assist, relay, or store gold or items for other players who are using these processes.

Come back when TexMod plays the game automatically.

Killed u man · Jun 01, 2010, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Texmod doesn't inject.
- All 3rd Party Programs bannable? Read the EULA again:

Come back when TexMod plays the game automatically.

1) It does, it just doesnt touch the client-server connection.
2) So the opposing party window hack is allowed to? Cool, didn't know that!

Kiky · Jun 01, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Texmod doesn't inject.
- All 3rd Party Programs bannable? Read the EULA again:

Come back when TexMod plays the game automatically.

First. It realy does inject to the game. And the opposing party window hack which exposes the target of an enemy is allowed in your theory.

Second. Some of the banned botters well let's say it in ur words: they had a gun and used it but didn't kill anyone simply "practiced" and tried it out. So this is what I'm QQing about in this thread, they didn't rly judge who to ban simply if an injection has been detected = BAN. Didn't matter if the guy they banned used bot for 10 mins, 2 hours or 2000 hours nor where they used it.